Rewriting the Rules of Social Drinking with JW Wiseman of Curious Elixirs
LISTEN ON: APPLE | SPOTIFY
JW Wiseman started his career in marketing and not specifically in the food industry. But that didn’t stop when he decided to branch out into the CPG industry via non-alcoholic cocktails. After years in the corporate world and seeing how alcohol was embedded into networking and socializing in the sphere, he wanted an alternative, and one that used better ingredients than what he could find on the market at the time.
Enter: Curious Elixirs, a booze-free cocktail company whose mission it is to redefine how society drinks socially by providing healthy adult beverages that taste great and look cool too.
In this episode, JW shares how he started his company, how he’s grown it without investors, why his marketing experience isn’t a substitute for hustle, and how he tries to find balance in his life outside of entrepreneurship.
Plus, he’s sharing what he wishes he had known when starting out in the CPG world. This episode is a must-listen for any aspiring CPG entrepreneurs.
Subscribe to the Food Means Business Podcast with Hudson Kitchen founder Djenaba Johnson-Jones to hear the personal stories and “secret ingredients” of abandoning your day job and starting a CPG food business.
In this episode, you’ll learn...
[00:36] How JW went branched out into non-alcoholic cocktails from a marketing background (and how that related to his experience with alcohol in his corporate career)
[04:37] How JW formulated his own product ideas before approaching a formulator
[07:30] Why the hustle is so important when it comes to marketing
[12:22] How JW has been able to grow Curious Elixirs without investment money
[14:25] The flavors of each Curious Elixir and how they were developed
[18:17] JW’s best advice for a new CPG entrepreneur
[21:47] How JW takes care of himself outside entrepreneurship
If you’re considering breaking into the NA beverage market, this conversation is a good one!
To get more Food Business Bites right in your inbox, sign up for our newsletter at thehudsonkitchen.com.
About JW Wiseman
After over a decade of working in marketing and partnerships for Thrillist, SKillshare, and his own firm, Good Business, JW decided it was time to branch out into the CPG world. So in 2015, he founded Curious Elixirs, a booze-free cocktail company whose mission it is to redefine how we drink socially by providing delicious, complex, and healthy adult beverages packed with adaptogens.
Connect with JW Wiseman:
Visit the Curious Elixirs website
Stay Connected with Djenaba Johnson-Jones:
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[00:00:00] Djenaba: You're listening to the food mean business podcast, where we feature the personal stories and secret ingredients behind what it's like to abandon your day job to start a food or beverage CPG business. I'm host Djenaba Johnson-Jones. And today I'm chatting with entrepreneur, investor, and non alcoholic cocktail pioneer, JW Wiseman of Curious Elixir.
[00:00:21] JW, welcome to our podcast.
[00:00:24] JW: It's such a pleasure to be here. Thank you.
[00:00:26] Djenaba: Absolutely. So, I want to know all about why non-alcoholic cocktails. so give us a little bit of background on your story.
[00:00:35] JW: Sure. Well, I've been a cocktail nerd for going on two decades now. And, uh, let's just say that I liked the bottle a little too much at, uh, you know, one crazy night back in 2012 in the winter time, right around this time of year.
[00:00:51] And I had 20 drinks in a night and I was fine the next day. So I realized. I needed to make a [00:01:00] change. And while I was making a change, I realized There's nothing interesting to drink if you're not drinking alcohol. So that's why I started curious elixirs. I started tinkering in my kitchen and my first project was like, can I make a non alcoholic Negroni?
[00:01:17] What if that can be not just a Negroni, but maybe make it a Spagliato, make it sparkling. And what if it could possibly make my body feel better? Instead of feeling worse. And that's when I started getting into herbs and adaptogens and figuring out how to infuse them into these drinks as well. So, you know, just that those little questions just started funneling me on my journey, you know, and I still have lots of questions.
[00:01:41] I don't have all the answers, but I got a lot more questions.
[00:01:45] Djenaba: I find your journey interesting because I it made me think about like working in corporate America and going to you know dinners with clients and if you don't drink people are so Uncomfortable. I just remember being sick and having to [00:02:00] order a drink and let it just sit there So the person that was I was with would feel better So i'm just wondering like how are you like?
[00:02:07] Because it's not about cocktails weren't a thing 10 years ago. And so now everyone's talking about being sober or sober curious or those types of things. I'm wondering, like, how did you educate consumers or the people around you on the beverage?
[00:02:22] JW: Well, one person at a time, you know, that's how it starts.
[00:02:25] And, you know, I elixirs so that it could also be something, you know, when you see it on a menu, like curious elixir number two. It kind of reminds you of like, oh, like Pimp's Cup number one or Corpse Survivor number two, or it's an homage to, you know, some of our favorite cocktails from around the world.
[00:02:43] And so I wanted something that could kind of hide in plain sight back when there was still so much stigma around not drinking. Those days are changing, but in many parts of America and the world, it still carries a lot of stigma. If you're not drinking, people are like, do you have a problem? Are you pregnant?
[00:02:58] Do you have a medical condition? What's going [00:03:00] on? And my whole thing was. Especially with, you know, one of my best friends who's like a Broadway TV star and Broadway and TV star, he's been sober for a decade and he just had his go to thing, which is like, I get a ginger beer with a lime. Nobody knows what's what I'm drinking.
[00:03:18] It's all good. And so I wanted to create something that would look cool in a bar and not, you know, raise any eyebrows. So because that's what we've been dealing with the past 10 years and things are changing. And, you know, our hope is that 20 years from now, 40 years from now, every business networking event, every meeting with a client, every hotel bar, every conference, comedy club, theater, restaurant, house party, et cetera, whatever you can think of, any social occasion should have a high quality non alcoholic drink like Curious behind the bar.
[00:03:57] And that's what we're hoping for so that it doesn't [00:04:00] matter whether you're drinking or not. What matters is you choose and that you have the choices, you have these alternatives. And so it's been thrilling to watch that, you know, even though we were the first to do it. Now there's hundreds of options that are out there, but I will say quick caveat read your ingredient labels people You know like pay attention to what you're putting into your body.
[00:04:23] Djenaba: Yeah,
[00:04:23] JW: we're a plain ingredient company We have been since day one and you know, we're not using refined sugars or anything like that No, phony baloney stuff and art drinks, but that's not true of everything out there. So just Still pay attention. You know, it's really important.
[00:04:37] Djenaba: Yeah, totally makes sense. So talk about like you kind of formally in the product I still beat you did this in your kitchen before kind of, you know, bringing it to the formulators and recipe developers So curious to talk about like how long did it take you to create the product?
[00:04:51] Who is tasting the product first before you kind of like put it out there to the world?
[00:04:55] JW: Sure So yes, I was tinkering in my kitchen first and [00:05:00] I you know You used some different party events in Brooklyn and Queens to kind of have some guinea pigs. Um, at the time we were opening a hotel in Rockaway Beach, Queens, and I put out a large carafe, you know, situation of an early prototype of Curious Number One and just put Curious Number One on it.
[00:05:24] Pomegranate, you know, didn't put anything on there saying it was non alcoholic, and it moved more than the booze moved.
[00:05:31] Djenaba: Wow.
[00:05:31] JW: You know, people were drinking that more than they were drinking the alcohol. And so I was like, okay, this is maybe more than a hobby. Maybe I need to get some, you know, some, uh, some real collaborators in on this.
[00:05:42] So my next step was, go and talk with everybody that I know in hospitality. And. You know, at the time I was, I had just left a company called Thrillist, digital media company where I was the head of marketing and so I knew a lot of people in [00:06:00] hospitality and I asked their advice, you know, I was like, Hey, you know, what do you think about this?
[00:06:04] What flavors do you think, you know, are going to be important? And one of the key things that I heard from people was, you know, And these are people that are like, you know, beverage directors for Wiley Dufresne and, you know, people working for Blue Hill and Stone Barns and, you know, very high level people.
[00:06:20] One of the key things they said was, don't make it a soda, you know, make something bitter, make something herbaceous, make something spicy, make something smoky. And I really took that to heart. You know, so none of our drinks are too sweet. There's plenty of sweet drinks out there. That's not solving a problem.
[00:06:35] What we need are things that are sophisticated, that have a beginning, middle, and an end to them when you drink them, so that they take you somewhere, so they do something different, so that you savor it, so that you slow down, and you're able to enjoy your time with people. Because that's what we all love about hospitality, right?
[00:06:53] It's not just the nourishment that we get though. That's important. It's the theater. It's the [00:07:00] nurturing. It's the people. It's the environment. It's the ability to take a second and just unwind together in a delightful environment. And that's what we're trying to do with every bottle of Curious is to enable people to slow down, sip and savor.
[00:07:16] Djenaba: You're so right. The experience is what's there. Most important when you ask somebody what's your favorite restaurant, typically they're, they're giving you information about the time they went with their good friends and they had a, you know, a really great time celebrating a birthday. And so like that experience is like, it's so important.
[00:07:30] That's so true. So you have a marketing background, talk a little bit about that and how you've been able to use that to promote the Curious Elixirs brand.
[00:07:40] JW: Sure. So when I was first incubating Curious Elixirs. I was when I first decided like, okay, this is a business, you know, I took a couple of years, like from 2012, I, I started really working on curious as a business in 2014 and 2015.
[00:07:59] And so [00:08:00] what that started to look like was I was head of marketing for Daily Harvest, superfood smoothies and soup company while I was incubating Curious and Rachel Drury, the founder of Daily Harvest, gave me some really, really good insights into this. And she was like, you're going to have to go full time on this if you're going to be serious.
[00:08:19] And she was right. You know, and, but it took me five years before I could, you know, really make it full time, you know, what I learned from the marketing aspect of it is that you need to focus on quality first and then storytelling. Second, if you focus on making something that's better than anything else out there, nobody's going to be able to touch you, but you then have to get your story out there, you know?
[00:08:44] So we focused a lot of time and effort on getting curious in front of tastemakers. In the hospitality industry and tastemakers in the media industry. And that's one of the reasons why we've been named best non alcoholic drinks five years in a row by the New York Times, you [00:09:00] know, that's something that you have to really focus on.
[00:09:03] You have to make sure that you get your product out there, put it in your calendar every day when you're launching a new company, an hour just dedicated to outreach. Every day, Monday through Friday, do it every day. Like, that's how you're going to be able to get the press that you need. That's how you're going to be able to reach the influencers that need to see your product.
[00:09:23] And you, there's no substitute, you know, for doing that yourself. And you can hire some really great, PR people. And we have, we have incredible PR people for curious now, but in the early days, it was just, you know, me and my little growth marketing agency team, you know, and that was it. And we were doing the hustle because we didn't have any money.
[00:09:43] You know, we, we don't have any investors. We don't have venture capital. You know, we don't have any of that stuff. This has been bootstrapped since day one. So it's really important that you try and punch above your weight with channels that can help you. And some of the channels that can [00:10:00] help you are going to be some of these big media outlets that still have pretty good reach.
[00:10:04] It might not be like the 1990s where, you know, you're going to be getting. 200, 000 people, you know, to your website because we're on the today show and we were on the today show, you know, two weeks ago, the important thing is you've got to grind it out an hour a day, every day, making sure you spread the word.
[00:10:23] It's not enough to make a great high quality product. You have to focus equal amount of attention on distribution and getting the word out there.
[00:10:32] Djenaba: Sometimes it feels like getting the word out is not. scalable in that way. And so it's like that one person at a time, like, even though we know it's effective, it feels really slow when you're kind of in the process of doing it.
[00:10:45] How did you manage that? I guess, because I think you you're using your marketing team, but you don't, you're just not really any money to spend on, you know, kind of getting the word out there. I experienced this myself in business, like, I know the one on one, the non scalable is really important, but at the same time, I [00:11:00] really want to, like, want to push something out there and kind of get everyone interested in it.
[00:11:03] So I'm just wondering, like, so how, can you give me advice on like, how do we have patience and take our time?
[00:11:09] JW: Wow. Yeah. Patience is so hard to come by when you were like, Oh, let's go, go, go, go, go. And you know, I think that, you know, one of the ways that it helps to have patience is to draw. Yeah, this is, this comes from the Amazon playbook, so this is not original to me.
[00:11:25] But one of the things that, you know, we do is any new initiative, we say, okay, what's the article that we want to come out five years from now? That talks about what we're doing today. And when you do that, the backwards roadmap becomes very clear, you know, and that helps give you patience because you're not looking at a three months, six months, nine month timeline.
[00:11:48] You're looking at a five year time. And I think that one of the things is also. Don't compare yourself to other companies. It's so easy to fall into that trap and use it for motivation. If it's [00:12:00] still, it's still going to get to you sometimes, let's be honest.
[00:12:02] Djenaba: Right.
[00:12:02] JW: You know, I look at some of the big companies in our space and some of the big alcohol companies that are, you know, copying what we do and you have to just kind of be like, They're never going to do it better than we do it.
[00:12:13] So just focus on our game, on what we're doing. And it's kind of like they say in the AA program, it's like one day at a time, you know?
[00:12:22] Djenaba: True, true. So, so you have no outside investment. Can you talk about how you've been able to build, you know, a successful business without that? I mean, I know, and that's, again, I'm sure it's a patient's game as well, but love to hear, hear about that story.
[00:12:36] JW: Oh, it pulls in my heart, you know, like every year there's moments where I'm like, should we? And then I'm like, stick to your original strategy here. And I'm glad that we have because we've, we've been profitable, but you know, since our first year, but every dollar has gone back in because this is a social mission, you know, transforming how we drink socially.
[00:12:58] Is a 40 year [00:13:00] project. This is not going to happen overnight. You know, so when you're talking about investment, it can be really easy to think that that's going to solve your problems. But the reality is, and having worked with dozens of different startups myself, it comes with strengths, you know, and then you're going for growth for growth sake.
[00:13:20] Rather than going for sustainable growth now I think there's been some changes in the VC community in the last couple of years where they're really focused on profitability now when you're Talking about ten years ago. We were having everybody come to us We were having all the big alcohol companies come to us big venture firms things like that And you kind of got to stay true to your values and my value is our number one mission is to transform how we drink socially and If we are about money first, that might not happen.
[00:13:53] So we need to make sure that we keep our mission at the top of our priority list. And so that [00:14:00] means that sometimes. You can't grow as fast as you want, and you don't have the resources that you'd love to have. But, you know, my mama and daddy raised me to be scrappy, and frugal, so that's what it's about.
[00:14:13] Djenaba: Talk about the different flavors. So I actually had a chance to taste a couple of flavors, and there was one there, there's a champagne cocktail that I really Enjoy. Can you talk a little bit about the flavors of that? Yeah.
[00:14:25] JW: Well, curious number seven is actually going to be a shout out to my mom again, because that one is inspired by her favorite drink, the French 75.
[00:14:32] Well, actually the French 77, which is infused with elderflower. So that's what curious number seven is all about. It's an elderflower Jasmine and lavender infused Chardonnay sparkler. So basically we get Chardonnay grapes from California, and before they're fermented we infuse them with a touch of juniper, lemon, elderflower, uh, lavender, [00:15:00] Jasmine along with, you know, a couple secrets, you know, we can keep things interesting that happens.
[00:15:08] Yeah. And basically we make that to be something that's light floral, but also has a touch of a bite to it. And you notice it finishes very dry, you know? Because there aren't that many drinks that finish very dry and you can always add sugar, you know, like one of my favorite things to do with that drink is if you add a little bit of honey syrup to it, all of a sudden, it's like a bee's knees, which is like a very famous, you know, classic cocktail.
[00:15:32] It brings the florals out and like tau in your mouth. So we always encourage a little bit of experimentation with people who want to go like a little bit extra, you know, but they're always done where you can flip it and sip it. Or you can add a little bit of garnish to have a little bit of ritual, or you can mess with it a little bit, tinker it with it yourself, because that's what I like doing in my, in my home bar is taking things, seeing how they are by themselves and then seeing like, Oh, what [00:16:00] happens if I tweak this?
[00:16:01] If I add a little acidity, if I add a little sugar. What happens? So curious, number seven, that's been definitely a top seller for us. We wanted to make something where like, if you're celebrating a wedding or if you're just celebrating Tuesday, you know, you will have something fancy to drink.
[00:16:15] Djenaba: Yeah, it was actually perfect.
[00:16:17] Really refreshing. I really liked champagne. So it kind of reminded me of that a little bit. So yeah, it was, it was really great. Can you talk about, cause you have now there's nine flavors, why one through nine, and did you have plans to launch other flavors moving forward?
[00:16:32] JW: Yes. So. Next month we're gonna be celebrating our 10th year of being in business.
[00:16:38] We launch one new elixir a year. So we will be launching our 10th elixir in the springtime. And, you know, again, like the numbering system, it's an homage to classic cocktails and it also kind of invites people in, you know, where you're like, you kind of have to be a little bit of a curious person to try it.
[00:16:57] And that might mean that some people don't try [00:17:00] it right away. You know, a natural born marketer might be like. Why are you creating barriers for people? Why don't you just say like curious champagne? And my feeling is when you're sitting down and you're savoring a drink, then you're going to want to know more about it.
[00:17:15] You know, and plus mystery is just fun. It's just a little bit more fun.
[00:17:20] Djenaba: Right. I, um, I always am like inspecting products, like reading the bottle and like reading with all the ingredients that are in it and what, like what the, the goal of as a manufacturer when I do that. So I think having all that is really important.
[00:17:32] That your packaging is really beautiful. So like, thank you. We love seeing it sitting on the counter, the countertop there in the home. It's like a part of the de decor, in my opinion. Really gorgeous.
[00:17:43] JW: Thank you. I was lucky that was able to get a designer who is at a incredibly famous design agency, and he, and he was able to moonlight for us to create that custom font and number system 10 years ago.
[00:17:56] So we've had all those numbers for a decade and, [00:18:00] you know, shout out to Matt Sia over at Pearl Fisher. You know, he's an incredible artist and he was able to help make all of those numbers for us. And then the rest of the packaging, you know, I've been working on myself, just, you know, an illustrator. And photoshop since I've been a photoshop nerd since I was like 14.
[00:18:17] Djenaba: Can you give a new beverage entrepreneur like a piece of advice that you like, what's like what's the one thing you wish you had known?
[00:18:24] JW: You know, I think that it's so valuable to work with food scientists from the jump, you know, and I was lucky that our food scientists. Allowed me to apprentice with them so that I could learn more and so that I could be, you know, a little more dangerous in the kitchen.
[00:18:45] And I think it's so important to find people that you can trust and to be fully honest with them and open about what you're trying to create. They know that we're 100 percent clean label. We're not using natural flavors and stuff like that, you know, for an aspiring, you know, [00:19:00] food or beverage entrepreneur.
[00:19:02] I think it's so crucial to investigate and research your ingredients and also your ingredients stack because people are going to try and make you take shortcuts like use potassium sorbate as a preservative and do all these things. What we're learning is, is that a lot of these preservatives might be carcinogenic and who knows about natural flavors.
[00:19:23] It's just this kind of veil of mystery that the FDA enables people to use. And, you know, I think in the long run. We're going to be really happy that we haven't done that. And our customers are going to be really happy that we haven't done that. So I would say to food and beverage entrepreneurs, it might take longer and it might be slightly more expensive, but don't take shortcuts.
[00:19:44] I remember being on shark tank and having, you know, one of the sharks tell me that my ingredients were way too expensive and I'm sorry, but he was just wrong. You know, and we didn't get a deal and that's fine. You know, I'm glad that we didn't get a deal and give some equity to somebody who wanted us [00:20:00] to make a cheap product so that they can make more money.
[00:20:03] Money again, you know, determine what your number one guiding light is and money is not ours. Yes. You have to have cash for a business to exist. It is the oxygen of your business. You must have it. But if it means you have to slow down a little bit to do the right thing, you I'd much rather do that and you're going to be able to sleep better at night now and in the future.
[00:20:25] Djenaba: That is so true. What's your favorite thing about being a beverage entrepreneur?
[00:20:30] JW: I love what I do. You know, my, my favorite thing I think is, you know, I love working on this and I love the team that we're building. You know, the team that we have at Curious Elixirs. These are people that for various different reasons have come to see that drinking less makes their lives better.
[00:20:51] And I think that's the number one thing that I love about this. You know, whether it's. You know, our incredible marketing director, Rachel Reynolds, or, [00:21:00] you know, the people on our operations team are in customer service or our warehouse teams. I mean, they're packing thousands of orders a month, getting this stuff out there and working with them and seeing the good work that they do and how we have this culture of.
[00:21:15] Incremental improvement. We're not making big swings. We're trying to do incremental improvements every day, you know, because that's the stuff that stacks up. That's what compounds is like making these little changes, you know, like flossing every day, you know, like every day you're gonna have better gums, you know, if you don't, you're not, you know, so it's the little things.
[00:21:38] And I think that's the stuff that strangely is my favorite. is just seeing how the little things add up.
[00:21:45] Djenaba: Yeah,
[00:21:46] JW: that's really good.
[00:21:47] Djenaba: What do you do for yourself? Like to take care of yourself and your family? Just, just curious. I got, cause we get so, I don't know. I know I could see for myself. Like I like to really like working and I work quite a bit, but I [00:22:00] like, you know, I'm working on taking more time for myself.
[00:22:03] I'm just curious as to what you do for self care.
[00:22:05] JW: Yes. Well, a couple of the things that I do to take care of myself, you know, are going to be You know, I'm trying to exercise four or five times a week and meditate. You know, I'm not, I'm not quite at my goal of doing 20 minutes twice a day because entrepreneur life and having a two and a half year old will, uh, will be a lot, but you know, I will say that making that time when I do, it is always rewarding.
[00:22:34] It is always rewarding and you know, and I recommend people, you know, try some breath work or try just going for a walk, you know, but be sure you take five minutes a day for yourself. At least, you know, everybody can find five minutes somewhere, you know, it's like, it might mean I'm not streaming the, the new Netflix, but you know, that's okay.
[00:22:56] Like that's okay. Cause my body feels better if I just do [00:23:00] a five minutes of exercise, even if it's just little, it makes a huge difference.
[00:23:07] Djenaba: Absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:23:12] At Hudson kitchen, we have what we call the money belt that we bring when you're celebrating something. So I'm wondering what you're celebrating. It could be personal, refreshing.
[00:23:19] JW: Oh, ringing the money bell. We are celebrating. We just had our biggest sales day of all time. So that I would say would be ringing the money bell.
[00:23:27] You know, I think it was January 2nd was our biggest sales day of all time. And then on January 5th, we broke it again. And so, you know, dry January is in full swing right now as we're recording this. So that that's what we're celebrating. And next month, we'll start the 10 year celebration for 10 years of.
[00:23:47] Being curious elixirs.
[00:23:49] Djenaba: Awesome. Congratulations. So JW, please let us know where we can find out all about you and curious elixirs.
[00:23:55] JW: Sure. You know, the best way to find us is either, you know, online on socials with at [00:24:00] curious elixirs or curious elixirs. com is the best way to find us. And that's the best way to find us.
[00:24:10] And I'm also on LinkedIn, you know, and yeah. If you have, if you're an aspiring, you know, entrepreneur, you know, I took this advice many years ago from one of my mentors, you can reach out to anybody in the world if you are gently persistent, and you just ask for five minutes of their time, and you'll be amazed by how your life changes when you do that, and you're not going to get to everybody, but like, go forth and be bold.
[00:24:36] So, you know, sin boldly as, uh, as, as I've heard before,
[00:24:39] Djenaba: I love that because like you, you just have to ask, ask the question, like a lot of times people are so afraid to talk to others or to ask, you know, people that are kind of further along on the journey than you questions, but I found that most people are happy to answer.
[00:24:54] an intelligent question. So like, why not ask it?
[00:24:57] JW: Absolutely. Absolutely. It's, it's [00:25:00] crucial. I mean, you know, I had to kind of crack myself out of my own shell because I wasn't a naturally extroverted person. But once I started doing that and I saw the results, I was like, Whoa, this is changing everything.
[00:25:14] You know, whether that's getting yourself a job or finding a partner, it changes the game. So, you know, it's, it's like, you really have to put yourself out there. And get a little bit uncomfortable so that you can get more comfortable.
[00:25:28] Djenaba: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for being here.
[00:25:30] JW: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:25:34] Djenaba: The Food Means Business Podcast is produced by Hudson Kitchen. It's mixed and edited by Wild Home Podcasting. Our theme song is by Damien DeSandis and I'm your host, Djenaba Johnson-Jones. Follow Hudson Kitchen on Instagram and LinkedIn at The Hudson Kitchen. And to get food business bites right in your inbox, sign up for our newsletter at the Hudson kitchen.
[00:25:52] com listen, follow, and leave a review on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get podcasts until next [00:26:00] time.