From Home Kitchen to a Nationwide Brand: Get Gluten-Free Sourdough Products Delivered Right to Your Doorstep With Sadie Scheffer
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How You Can Get Your CPG Food Business into the Hands of Consumers Nationwide…
Think quality bread is off the menu? Think again! Now, you can get gluten-free sourdough products delivered right to your doorstep.
In this episode, I’m joined by Sadie Scheffer, the founder of Bread SRSLY — a business born of a college crush and shared gluten intolerance. Hear the story of how Sadie leveraged the growing nationwide demand for healthier and more accessible food options to grow her business into what it is today.
Topics range from the early days of Bread SRSLY to Sadie’s adjacent business ventures into coaching and motivational speaking. Whether you practice your own gluten-free diet or just need some inspiration to jump start your own food business, you won’t want to miss this episode!
Plus, Sadie also talks about how entrepreneurship has changed her and what else she likes to do for fun!
Subscribe to the Food Means Business Podcast with Hudson Kitchen founder Djenaba Johnson-Jones to hear the personal stories and “secret ingredients” of abandoning your day job and starting a CPG food business.
In this episode, you’ll learn...
[00:36] Sadie’s commitment to gluten-free food and the early days of Bread SRSLY
[09:24] Business processes, growing a team, and managing wholesale orders/shipments
[13:00] Adjacent business ventures including coaching and motivational speaking
[16:40] Tips for hiring great teams including setting clear expectations
[18:42] Advice for entrepreneurs just starting out in the food industry
If you want to learn more on running a nationwide consumer product goods business, be sure to tune into this episode:
Links mentioned in this episode…
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About Sadie Scheffer:
Sadie Scheffer is an artist, an MIT drop out, and an accidental baker who learned the art of gluten-free baking to impress her college crush. Today she is the CEO of Bread SRSLY, makers of certified gluten-free sourdough bread in Oakland, CA. You can find Bread SRSLY in natural grocery stores throughout California. Bread SRSLY's products are also free of the top 9 allergens, certified Kosher, and Non-GMO.
Connect with sadie:
Follow Bread SRSLY on Instagram
Connect with Sadie on LinkedIn
Stay Connected with Djenaba Johnson-Jones:
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[00:00:03] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: You are listening to the Food Means Business podcast, which features the personal stories and secret ingredients behind what it's like to abandon your day job to start a CPG, food and beverage business. I'm Djenaba Johnson-Jones, former marketing executive turned entrepreneur and founder of food business incubator Hudson Kitchen. So in our community of fellow food business owners and subject matter experts to learn and laugh with us as we explore a startup world that's a little more culinary and a lot less corporate these days. [00:00:28][25.6]
[00:00:28] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: Hi Sadie. Welcome to the Food Means Business podcast. [00:00:33][4.5]
[00:00:34] Sadie Scheffer: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. [00:00:35][1.6]
[00:00:36] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: I'm so glad that you're here as well. So before we jump in, we'd love to hear your story and what made you start Bread SRSLY? [00:00:42][6.3]
[00:00:43] Sadie Scheffer: So I started businesses in 2011, but the story started a couple of years before that. I dropped out of MIT. I was studying mechanical engineering, and I decided to follow my college crush to San Francisco only to find out that the feeling was not mutual at the time. So I didn't have anything else to do. I was the new college dropout. So I decided to spend all of my time and all my money learning how to be and cook gluten free food. Because Jessi, my crush, was gluten intolerant, and I thought that would be a winning tactic to finally win him over. [00:01:22][38.1]
[00:01:23] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: Wow. [00:01:23][0.0]
[00:01:24] Sadie Scheffer: So. So I did that taught me how to cook and bake and learn how to use gluten ingredients. And every day I would invite him over to a restaurant I made for ten months. And after ten months. And we started dating. [00:01:40][15.9]
[00:01:41] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: That is hilarious. Okay, so I have some questions before you go. So what did the family think about that being out of school? [00:01:48][7.1]
[00:01:50] Sadie Scheffer: I was the last person in my family to drop out of school. Everyone before me had dropped out. So my mom was added, but totally understand. My twin sister had already dropped out of school. Both my parents had set this school, you know. [00:02:09][18.8]
[00:02:10] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: So are your parents entrepreneurs And just curious then. [00:02:12][2.3]
[00:02:14] Sadie Scheffer: My mom? Yes. Okay. My dad took over his dad's, but hated that. My mom started her own business. So I learned from her mostly. Yeah. So I think this was like I was going to be the first one to have, like, a real job and a family. And I think that I think she was excited for that prospect because she knows how hard it is to run a business. She was making clothing. So like basically a manufacturing business for my dad. I didn't know this at the time, but at my wedding, my dad's speech was all about when I dropped out of college, how proud he was, all the work. But now I love it. [00:02:53][38.9]
[00:02:53] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: I love it. There are so supportive. Awesome. Yep. Okay, so now ten mind baking and Cooking gluten free food. So. And you said Jessie wasn't that into you at first? Like, what do you think won him over the fact that you were cooking for him? [00:03:08][15.7]
[00:03:09] Sadie Scheffer: Confidence. When I said soon as I decided I, you know, I could be over it, I could have a crush on someone else. It's the week we started dating. [00:03:18][9.1]
[00:03:20] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: I love that all your talents didn't go to waste, that you actually started and grew a business from all of that. So people thought about. I know you were testing, you know, in that ten month phase. But I'm wondering like, can you just give an idea of like, how did you actually decide to do a business because you could have really done anything. [00:03:36][16.5]
[00:03:37] Sadie Scheffer: Yeah. [00:03:37][0.0]
[00:03:38] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: Because you could have done cookies for that year. [00:03:41][2.5]
[00:03:41] Sadie Scheffer: Totally. So let's see. Jessie and I started dating, and about eight months later, I found out that I was gluten intolerate. Oh, wow. Which was, like, no big deal because I already had on the stage. But I was really into fermentation at that time and pickles and the workouts and stuff, and I was just about to try making sourdough. No, when I not I was intolerant and I was like really bummed that I might have to try to make sourdough. And so I decided with the Hey, I'll just try it in three ingredients. And it worked poorly at first, but it was sour. It was just kind of gross, you know. But because it was sour, I was okay. Some of this happening like fermentation happening now I just have to, like, keep experimenting. And so I did that for about six months. Seven. And then, like the rest of us, get better and better. And I am very impulsive person. So I was like hung from work one day and just was like, you know what? I was following the blog. Another baker, Josie Baker in the Bay Area who would like baking bread in his house and delivering on our bike. And I was like, You know what? I could do that too. And I emailed everyone I knew that same day to tell them that I was starting a business called Bread SRSLY, and they could pick up our stuff in my house. And Jesse came home from work and was like, I hear you're starting a bakery. Do you want to talk about that? So it was just super spur of the moment and just happened. So like I emailed everyone out. I had three weeks to prep and so three weeks later I had the first round pick up day in August 2011. [00:05:22][100.7]
[00:05:23] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: So I have to ask, get out a commercial kitchen and make what were the cottage food life back then or did you not? [00:05:28][5.3]
[00:05:29] Sadie Scheffer: They didn't exist yet, like nine months and we got our first. So let's say Hi, Dad. Yeah, good question. [00:05:36][7.4]
[00:05:37] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: Not needed at all. I think that starting at home is like, the really best way to. [00:05:41][4.5]
[00:05:42] Sadie Scheffer: Yeah. Yeah. I think that Cottage Street laws came into effect right after we got our first commercial kitchen, like a year. [00:05:48][5.8]
[00:05:48] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: And so you better. When are you trying this business And Jessica Velma is like you're starting a business, you know, and what do you like? And obviously, you mean you mention that people get pick things up in three weeks Where? Like what? What were you thinking? When did you write a business plan? Did you you know, other than them picking it up, were you selling to other places? What do you decide to do? [00:06:07][19.3]
[00:06:08] Sadie Scheffer: Yeah, I did not write a business and right away I had run a hobby businesses before, like T-shirt company mostly. And so I was very used to like, I make something, I sell it for cash than cash and my business. And I didn't really know the fundamentals of business. So it was just people buying directly from me. I started delivering on my bike and I could reach more people. And once I started consistently selling to strangers, I got the message that I didn't know how to run an actual business. And especially because bread people buy it every week, wear a t shirt they buy at once. I thought they read like a little bit more and they're like, Oh, this could be like a real thing. And that clinic business is the women's initiative for self-employment, which sadly no longer exists. But it was a great, like, gentle intro to business class for women who want to be self employed. And so it taught me like what cashflow is and how to write projections and that I was supposed to pay myself. My parents didn't pay themselves. So like, that's just how I thought. And that was really crucial. And so I wrote a business plan in that class. Of course, I immediately, like, did nothing on the business side, but I feel like that, like write one even if it's completely wrong. And Bread SRSLY went full time smack in the middle of that class because we got a bunch of press all in a row. And so I was, you know, I had to like skip class to bake, which was an interesting time of my life. [00:07:42][94.2]
[00:07:43] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: You mentioned you were you were working. So what kind of job did you hold while you were kind of doing the business on the side before? [00:07:48][4.9]
[00:07:48] Sadie Scheffer: Yeah, I was a barista and I worked at the farmer's market. [00:07:50][1.9]
[00:07:51] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: Very related, you know. So, okay, you have a real business because you got a bunch or did you seek the press out or did you. [00:07:59][8.3]
[00:08:00] Sadie Scheffer: Would you deliver the funny day in business class where the we were it was a class about goals and we had to write like two long term goals and two short term goals, and we had to write them down. And then by the class we had to have some them or something like that. And so I wrote down like put in my notice of the coffee shop by March 15th and get in touch with a reporter. And the very next day, without me doing anything, I got an email from my boss that the coffee shop was shutting down market first. And I got an email from a reporter saying that they wanted to know. It was like, Wow, writing goals, really work ethic. That off and on is kind of scary. There is like a very traceable like chain of word of mouth when I started. So like a friend of a friend of Jesse's bought bread the first week it turned out she worked in an allergy clinic. So she told all her clients and one of her clients was in a parent group. So she told the parents group and one of the parents in the group was a person was to that disease who was also a reporter. And so she was the one who wrote. And then once that article published, it was just a chain reaction of other people also to interview me. [00:09:09][69.1]
[00:09:10] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: That is certainly a testament on how you should tell your friends what you're doing. You just never know what can happen. [00:09:15][5.1]
[00:09:16] Sadie Scheffer: Like just brag about yourself. Like tell people the cool stuff you're doing. Even if it's uncomfortable. Especially if it's uncomfortable. [00:09:22][6.7]
[00:09:24] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: So you're doing this thing. You got this Price was great. Things are blowing up. You have a full time business now. What happened? Like, I know at a certain point in my business, I was like, I broke it. I need to go back and start over again. I think some things like how do I put processes in place and hire people and like, what happened? What do you do? [00:09:41][17.3]
[00:09:42] Sadie Scheffer: Yeah, we've had that like, break it all, fix it all cycle and it's just now. So let's see, it went full time like basically overnight. And one of the pieces of press and I was quite underprepared for that because I was still baking at home. I had to stay up all night baking to fill the orders that I got from that article. And so eventually, let's see, I got a business partner for like two months. It didn't work out, but it was like right there was literally the day before that article came out that she started working with me. So I had like, I had a buddy who could, like, help me get through two months of insanity. She found us our first commercial kitchen. She and I would do all the baking and delivery. Then she had to move away. We got a bigger commercial kitchen, so it had two ovens instead of one. So I got a request for an internship and someone who wanted to learn about vegan baking. Our products are also all vegan, so I said yes, and she trained with me for two weeks and then said, okay, I learned enough. Thank you. And I was like, No, no, should pick it. I need you because you're like on the spot. And that was like recently and that and that maybe like 6 or 9 months later, I got another internship request through Bowman College, brought that person on. And then she was wonderful. So I hired her as well. And I had two bakers that point. I stopped doing all the baking myself, like I didn't have to be there every time there was baking, which was such a relief. Yeah, I am not a morning person. But yeah. So ask the production staff started grilling on their own and they hire was marketing to just try to get the word out. You know, work on email and social on all of those things. Then I hired I think my next week hire was operations and then sales, and that was how I started, like growing out the team beyond production. [00:11:40][118.4]
[00:11:41] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: Were you able to hire them as employees or were they contractors at first? [00:11:44][3.0]
[00:11:45] Sadie Scheffer: Employees. [00:11:45][0.0]
[00:11:46] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: Oh, wow. [00:11:47][0.2]
[00:11:47] Sadie Scheffer: Yeah. Yeah. [00:11:48][0.6]
[00:11:48] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: I mean. [00:11:48][0.1]
[00:11:49] Sadie Scheffer: I don't remember the thought process there, but we've sort of always had things in-house rather than contractors. That's just our style. [00:11:58][8.6]
[00:11:59] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: So now you've grown this big business and shipping across the country. Like how did that happen? [00:12:06][6.5]
[00:12:07] Sadie Scheffer: So the that business plan that I threw in the trash was to do farmers markets. That was like the entire business plan. But we ended up going wholesale to so grocery stores in 2012. And so I grew the wholesale business for a couple of years before I brought on a salesperson to keep growing it. And maybe in 2014 for me, we get like random requests for people to ship red, you know, like to a week. In 2014, I think I finally made a website that had a store on it and then we started selling with my marketing employee, started selling like 30 orders a week and then 90 hours a week. So that really started taking to the like, you know, we shipped 900 orders this week for Thanksgiving. So the e-commerce is now a full 50% of the business. [00:12:59][51.8]
[00:13:00] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: Yeah. So percentage. Yeah. Great. Yeah. So I also read that you transitioned into doing some coaching in motivational speaking, so I'd love to hear about how why you decided to do those things. Yeah. [00:13:12][12.3]
[00:13:13] Sadie Scheffer: So I have been working with a business coach for the last two years, which I highly recommend is just like so supportive and as a place to like really work on yourself and your leadership skills and all sorts of things with her. I've been trying to transition to doing less work. I'm sort of someone who will like select my container, like I used to work seven days a week. I don't know why. So I'm looking at the five days a week and I set a goal to transition to working 30 hours a week. I try to like get a little bit of balance back and I knew that I like I didn't have to work 40 hours a week anymore because I have an amazing team. Like I have an actual leadership team. I have amazing managers who are like brilliant and take initiative and are way better than I am at the various parts of the business. So I knew I was just working that much like because. I was used to it. [00:14:11][57.7]
[00:14:11] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: Yeah. [00:14:11][0.0]
[00:14:12] Sadie Scheffer: And I was filling it up with, like, busywork, refreshing my inbox and, like, admin. Like, it wasn't important. And I kind of had a hunch that the less I worked, the more I would choose the right things to work on, which for me are strategy. And those are the things that I'm that's. But when I work more, I just don't even do those things. It's like kind of counterintuitive. So, you know, at this point, I'm working, you know, like 15 to 20 hours a week on Bread SRSLY? Which is cool. [00:14:43][31.6]
[00:14:44] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: That's very cool. [00:14:45][0.5]
[00:14:47] Sadie Scheffer: And it really yeah. [00:14:49][1.5]
[00:14:50] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: I think a lot of people, including me, want to be in that place where where that's like kind of you're giving, you know, the 15 to 20 hours a week to the business and you're able to do something else that you love. [00:14:59][9.6]
[00:15:00] Sadie Scheffer: So, yeah. [00:15:00][0.6]
[00:15:02] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: So congratulations. [00:15:02][0.1]
[00:15:02] Sadie Scheffer: Thank you. So, yeah, I had set a goal to do. I really like a public speaking. I didn't know that about myself. I found out through like, pitch competitions, just like. Like being on stage, like having the mic. So I took a course in like, how to turn public speaking into a business and set that as a goal for this year to just try to do that and see if that could be a revenue stream. But also because it's super fun and motivating for me. So I speak about basically workplace culture and hiring. And then through dialing in what I wanted to speak about, I realized that I wanted to be doing like really working with one on one with people doing business coaching, but also teaching people how to hire. So I'm actually starting a new project called Hire Like a Badass that teaches people with 250 K to 750 K and revenue how to hire great teams. [00:15:57][54.7]
[00:15:58] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: That's amazing because that's so important because a lot of and I'll be really honest like some hiring that I've done has been like really emotional or I really like the person verses or the actually the right person for the job to really raise their hand. Maybe, you know. [00:16:12][13.9]
[00:16:12] Sadie Scheffer: You can. Yeah. And I think a lot of people don't realize that like once you make the hire it, that's not the end of the hiring process. Like onboarding and training are so crucial. You can make the right hire and they will fail if they don't have the right onboarding and training in place. And so it is really is like it's a repeatable process. And once you know it, it's sort of obvious, but before you know it like, oh my God, I had to definitely learn all this the hard way. [00:16:39][26.4]
[00:16:40] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: Because that is your specialty. Can you give a few tips for people that are looking to hire or hired? [00:16:45][4.9]
[00:16:45] Sadie Scheffer: Yeah. So hiring is it's a conversation and great communication is all about clear expectations. So the first place that I want folks to think about setting clear expectations is in the job description that they're writing. So before you meet someone, they're reading your job description and they're inferring expectations from what they read. And so they're getting an expectation of what it would be like to be in this role, what it's like to work with you, what is expected of them in this role. And so that's the place to like really put effort. Like, don't just copy and paste anything you've seen before. One of my pet peeves in job descriptions is the phrase like, must have a sense of urgency, which I feel like, you know, we just like, read it and act like you just expect it to be there. But what the heck does that actually mean? To me, it means like, this is not a great workplace culture. You will feel rushed and stressed all the time, and if you don't, you're wrong. You're not complete. [00:17:42][56.9]
[00:17:42] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: I think really, I completely agree with you. It's like I've been that as a comment on a performance review when I was working in corporate that I was I didn't have a sense of urgency. And you want me to be running around, come to everybody that I'm busy and stressed out instead of working effectively. [00:17:58][16.1]
[00:17:59] Sadie Scheffer: But like, because it's on every job description, we just like, take it as a given. So like, be really critical about what you're putting on there. Be critical about sense of urgency. Be critical about like what educational background you're asking for. Like you really need a college degree. Does that matter to you? Because there's a lot of amazing people who haven't had the opportunity to to get a degree like really think about what boundaries you're putting up that will keep the right people away from your company. But what my favorite anecdote about the man that my husband was looking for work a couple of years ago and he look at a job at a meditation app company that said they must have a 10th of a C. So that was the best thing ever. [00:18:40][40.8]
[00:18:42] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: You know, crazy and so funny. Can you give a piece of advice to someone that's just starting? [00:18:47][5.5]
[00:18:48] Sadie Scheffer: Yeah, let's see. So much advice out there and it's awesome and it's free. And it's also like you will find conflicting advice out there and your advice to you. So my advice for founders at any stage is to really spend the time getting to know yourself and West for you and. All right. Yeah, there is so much like peer pressure in the food industry to do things a certain way because we see it modeled and we see that like, successful restaurants have like real jerks working in the kitchen or successful food companies scale to 10,000,000 in 3 years and get a mentor or something like that. And it can feel really uncomfortable to knock those models. But if they're not right for you, right for you, and I recommend just putting some work into the advice because all the right thing for you. [00:19:46][58.0]
[00:19:47] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: That's a very good point. How has entrepreneurship changed you? [00:19:50][3.8]
[00:19:52] Sadie Scheffer: So I've been running businesses for more than a third of my life, so like, it's literally like I grew up with friends, seriously, just kind of while I was like, I'm a shy extrovert. So when I started to say I like always sat in the back of the room like never open my mouth and never is. And I was like this shy, uncertain little thing. But see, like really helped me grow into myself. I think it helped me, like learn what I love and enjoy. And like one of my favorite things about my job is I work and like 22 year old me, starting Bread SRSLY would have been like the hardest thing in the world. How do you even do it? So a lot of that has changed. Leadership has been really inspiring and motivating for me. So I started working with a different, well, the same coach, but in a different capacity. In about 2018, when I realized that like I had a lot of employees, but I had no idea how to be a manager. And so I worked with her to just like teach me the basics, like how to do a check in and there's a performance review. I was barista. I didn't get those thing right when I had worked in actual place. And so from that, like after getting just the start, I started really getting into leadership. And that was first time I read for Nate Brown, and that really lit up fireworks in my head and started to really work on myself as a leader and work on our company culture to turn it into like the culture we have now, which is a culture of communication and leadership. So it's been an amazing adventure and I can't even imagine it a different way here. [00:21:37][105.2]
[00:21:38] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: It sounds like it's been great. Like you seem like you're you're having a good time, even though I know like, entrepreneurship is challenging at the same time to be able to grow a business, have employees that you trust that take initiative like that's amazing. [00:21:50][12.1]
[00:21:51] Sadie Scheffer: And it's amazing. Yeah. And of course there's lows and sometimes there's highs and lows in the same day. And again, coaching really helps you with that. Just sort of like take out the mindset trash of like I'm failing or, you know, I'm only working 20 hours a week. I'm so inadequate when other people are like, How do you work 20 hours a week? I dream. So, you know, see that on super messy for sure. [00:22:14][22.7]
[00:22:15] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: Honestly, we didn't choose to go back and work for anybody else. I want to be unemployable. [00:22:20][4.6]
[00:22:22] Sadie Scheffer: Yeah, me too. [00:22:22][0.5]
[00:22:23] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: So you mentioned working the 15 hours a week and honestly, just, you know, having the coaching and motivational speaking. But what do you do for fun or just to kind of take care of yourself? [00:22:31][7.7]
[00:22:32] Sadie Scheffer: I'm a curler. Really? Yeah. [00:22:35][2.8]
[00:22:36] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: Well, how long? [00:22:36][0.4]
[00:22:36] Sadie Scheffer: Really? Just for a year. Right. And it has, like, you know, sort of. It like I curl three days a week. I'm also a volunteer curling instructor. [00:22:45][8.3]
[00:22:46] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: Oh. [00:22:46][0.0]
[00:22:47] Sadie Scheffer: I used to have a lot more hobbies. And then curling came in and like I said, I used to spend, like, gardening and making artwork and hiking. So it's fun. Wow. [00:22:57][9.3]
[00:23:01] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: So at Hudson Kitchen we have what I call the money bell in our lobby. And we bring it when people are celebrating something. So I'm wondering, what are you celebrating right now? Could be personal or professional? [00:23:09][7.9]
[00:23:10] Sadie Scheffer: Well, I'm celebrating launching Hire Like a Badass and something I've been thinking about for a couple months and we're chipping away at. And I'm really excited to work with people in that capacity. And see, I am celebrating an amazing, amazing community. Like, I just moved to this neighborhood that I'm in and have like so many friends around me all the time. So in the middle of my work day, I can just walk down the street and go to my friend's house for ten minutes, you know, to have a quick like so I'll pick me up the first think I'm moving. And it's been really uplifting and just like stabilizing in a in a way that I really needed. [00:23:52][41.9]
[00:23:54] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: Well, see, let everyone know where they can find you, Bread SRSLY and also how they can work with you. Your other initiatives. [00:24:00][6.2]
[00:24:01] Sadie Scheffer: Sure. So you can find Bread SRSLY in California, natural grocery stores in the refrigerator section. And we ship nationwide through breadsrsly.com. And that's s-r-s-l-y. And if you are interested in business coaching, you can book a free intro call with me to see if it seems like a good fit. And that is all at sadiescheffer.com. [00:24:23][22.0]
[00:24:25] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: Right. Thank you. [00:24:26][0.8]
[00:24:26] Sadie Scheffer: Thank you. [00:24:27][0.3]
[00:24:29] Djenaba Johnson-Jones: The Food Means Business podcast was produced by Hudson Kitchen. It is recorded at the studio at Carney Point and mixed and edited by Wild Home Podcasting. Our theme song is by Damien de Sandys and I'm your host Djenaba Johnson-Jones. Follow the Hudson Kitchen on Instagram @theHudsonKitchen and to get Food Business Bites right in your inbox, sign up for our newsletter at theHudsonKitchen.com/newsletter. Listen, follow and leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get podcasts. Until next time.